Sola Scriptura debate charts by Pat Donahue

Sola Scriptura: Sola Scriptura debates between Christians vs. Orthodox/Catholics

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The word of God is the sword of the Spirit!

1

Chart Listing - Sola Scriptura

 

1. Chart Listing

 

Affirmative

2. I Corinthians 13:8-10, Part Versus Whole

3. I Corinthians 13:8-10, The Perfect (Complete) Must be of the Same Nature as its Parts

4. I Corinthians 13:8-10, Mixing Apples and Oranges

5. I Corinthians 13:8-10, What Is The Whole?

6. I Corinthians 13:13, And Now Abideth

7. Zechariah 13:1-4, The Prophets Have Passed Out of the Land

8. Zechariah 13:3-4, False Prophets Will Outlast True Prophets

15. II Timothy 3:16-17

16. Revelation 20:12 Judged Out Of Those Things ... Written In The Books

23. Papal Fallibilities Admitted, By The Pope Himself, Adrian VI

39. Papal Fallibilities Admitted, By Other Catholics

21. Papal Fallibilities - Geocentrism

22. Papal Fallibilities - Salvation For Jews, Faith Only Salvation

25. The Inquisition

26. Mental Reservation, How Can We Trust The Catholic Church?

33. How Catholic Authoritative, If It's Teaching Changes? - Invalid Marriages

34. How Catholic Authoritative, If It's Teaching Changes? - Mode Of Baptism

35. How Catholic Authoritative, If It's Teaching Changes? - Communion "Under Both Kinds"

36. How Catholic Authoritative, If It's Teaching Changes? - Frequency Of Communion

40. How Catholic Authoritative If - The Catholic Church Contradicts The Bible

Rebuttal

9. I Corinthians 13:8-10, Pieces Gone Then Whole Gone?

10. I Corinthians 13:8-10, Get Complete Revelation At Second Coming?

11. I Corinthians 13:13, And Now

12. Zechariah 13:2, But There Are Still Idols?

Negative

18. I Timothy 3:15, The Church Is The Pillar Of The Truth

17. Tradition, II Thessalonians 2:15, II Tim 2:2, I Cor 11:2, I Thess 2:13, Acts 2:42

13. The Church/Pope Tells Us?

14. Transubstantiation

38. Church Fathers Always Right?, Peter Is The Rock?

24. Church Fathers Always Right?, Lord's Supper

19. Pat Is Fallible

20. The Bible Is Understandable

27. Catholics Assembled Canon?

28. Martin Luther Removed The Apocrypha?

29. Printing Press Not Invented Until 1440?

30. Unity?

31. Apostolic Succession?

32. Contraception

37. Why So Many Interpretations?

41. If Sola Scriptura, How Do We Know The Table Of Contents?

42. The Point Of I Corinthians 13:8-10

 

43. Contact Sheet

 

2

I Corinthians 13:8-10

Part Versus Whole

 

"Perfect" (Whole) in I Corinthians 13:10

does NOT refer to sinlessness

reached its end, finished, complete, perfect (Vine, p.173)

wanting nothing necessary to completeness (Thayer, p.618)

 

"Part" in I Corinthians 13:9

One of the constituent parts of the whole. Universally in a context where the whole and its parts are distinguished, Lk 11:36 ... in part, partially (Thayer, p.401)

 

Luke 11:36:

If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light ...

Having no part OF WHAT? The body. How do we know? Because the whole and its parts are distinguished. The part must be of the same nature as the whole. The whole is the body, therefore the part must be part OF THE BODY.

 

Similarly, in I Corinthians 13:8-10, the whole and its parts are being distinguished. The perfect (complete or whole) is being contrasted with the parts of that whole. The existence of this contrast indicates the whole is of the same nature as the part.

 

Since the parts have to do with the revelation of God's will, and since the whole must be of the same nature as the parts, then the whole must be the whole revelation, i.e., the completed NT.

 

Since the NT has been completed (perfected), & since the parts were to be "done away" when the perfect came, therefore the parts (including tongues & prophecy) have been DONE AWAY.

 

3

I Corinthians 13:8-10

The Perfect (Complete) Must be

of the Same Nature as its Parts

 

"That which is perfect" or whole must refer to the completed revelation, as the whole must be of the same nature as the parts of that whole. That which is in part (knowledge, prophecy, v.9, and tongues, v.8) pertains to revealed information, so "that which is perfect," complete, or whole, must also pertain to revealed information, that is, the completed New Testament.

 

The Whole Must be of the Same Nature as a Part of that Whole

IN PART PERFECT

(Partial) (Complete, Whole)

 

Part (piece) of an Apple ................... Perfect (complete, whole) Apple

Part (piece) of an Orange .............. Perfect (complete, whole) Orange

Know in part ........................................................ Complete knowledge

Prophesy in part ..................................................... Complete prophecy

PARTIAL REVELATION ........................ COMPLETE REVELATION

In part, partial 2nd coming? ................ Perfect, complete 2nd coming

NOT

Part (piece) of an Apple ................. Perfect (complete, whole) Orange

Partial Revelation ............................... Complete 2nd coming of Christ

My Opponent is Mixing Apples and Oranges !

 

Conclusion:

The "perfect" of I Corinthians 13:10 must refer to the perfect (completed) revelation of God, that is, the completed New Testament; therefore since tongues were to cease when that which is perfect would come, then TONGUES CEASED WHEN THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS COMPLETED.

 

4

I Corinthians 13:8-10

Mixing Apples and Oranges

 

If Fred offered Ethel a piece of an apple, and Ethel replied, "no thank you, I want a whole one," would Ethel be asking for a whole apple, or for a whole orange?

Ethel would be asking for a whole apple, not necessarily for the same apple that the piece offered came from, but a whole apple nonetheless. How would Fred know that Ethel wanted a whole apple and not a whole orange? Because the whole must be of the same nature as the part.

 

In I Corinthians 13:8-10, the perfect (complete or whole) is being contrasted with the part. The existence of this contrast indicates that the whole must be of the same nature as the part.

 

Since the parts have to do with the revelation of God's will, and since the whole must be of the same nature as the parts, then the whole must be the whole revelation, that is, the completed N.T.

 

Since the N.T. has been completed (perfected), and since the parts were to be "done away" when the perfect came, therefore the parts (including tongues and prophecy) have been DONE AWAY.

 

5

I Corinthians 13:8-10

What Is The Whole ?

 

I am going to quit my two part time jobs when I get a _____.

_ glass of water

_ full time job

 

Last night the power was out, so we read by candle light until the electric _____ came back on.

_ shaver

_ lights

 

When they moved to Birmingham, they rented an apartment until they could buy a _____.

_ box of fried of chicken

_ house

Instead of hamburgers I would rather go get a _____.

_ box of fried of chicken

_ house

 

GOD'S REVELATION in parts will be done away when _____ in whole is come.

_ the 2nd coming

_ God's revelation

 

The perfect of I Cor 13:8-10 is not the 2nd coming of Christ. It is of the same nature as the revelation in parts - it is the complete revelation

 

6

I Corinthians 13:13

And Now Abideth

 

"That which is perfect" cannot be the 2nd coming:

1. Faith and hope will abide through "that which is perfect."

and/de - "but, and, now, often implying an ANTITHESIS" (Vine)

now/nuni - "with logical import" (Vine) - "Auburn didn't win any National Championships in the 1970's; but now, Alabama did."

notice that "And now ABIDETH faith, hope ..." is set in contrast to prophecies, tongues, and miraculous knowledge STOPPING

it says "these three" will abide, not "these six"

2. The 2nd coming of Christ will do away with the need for faith (II Cor 5:6-8, Heb 11:1) and hope (Heb 11:1, Rom 8:24).

perfect 2nd coming

| |

prophecies | |

-------------------------------> | I Cor 13:8-10 |

tongues | |

-------------------------------> | I Cor 13:8-10 |

knowledge | |

-------------------------------> | I Cor 13:8-10 |

| |

faith | I Cor 13:13 |

--------------------------------- | ----------------------> | II Cor 5:6-8

hope | I Cor 13:13 | Heb 11:1

--------------------------------- | ----------------------> | Rom 8:24

charity | I Cor 13:13 |

--------------------------------- | ------------------------ | ----------------------->

| |

 

Conclusion:

The "perfect" of I Corinthians 13:10 CANNOT be referring to the 2nd coming of Christ.

 

7

Zechariah 13:1-4

The Prophets Have Passed Out of the Land

 

The whole context (chapters 12 and 13) is talking about a single TIME PERIOD, called ...

"that day": 12:3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11, 13:1, 2, 4

 

v.2 "the prophets ... to pass out of the land"

-> in other words, PROPHECY WOULD CEASE!

 

When Would Prophecy Cease?

Prophecy Would Cease During The

Same Time Period As The FIRST Coming Of Christ

 

13:1 - "In that day there shall be a FOUNTAIN OPENED ... FOR SIN and for uncleanness"

 

11:12-13 - "So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver ... cast them to the potter" (quoted in Mt 27:9,7 - Judas and the potter's field)

 

12:10 - "... his only SON ... whom they have PIERCED" (applied to Jesus in Jn 19:37 - "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they PIERCED")

 

13:6 - "What are these WOUNDS in thine HANDS?"

 

13:7 - "SMITE THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED" (Jesus applied this to himself in Mt 26:31 - "for it is written, I will SMITE THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP ... SHALL BE SCATTERED abroad")

 

 

CONCLUSION

Prophecy Would Cease During The

Same Time Period As The FIRST Coming Of Christ

 

8

Zechariah 13:2-4

False Prophets Will Outlast True Prophets

 

"In That Day" CANNOT be the Second Coming:

Zech 13:2-4 shows that false prophets will continue on AFTER true prophets will cease to be (v.3 - "if anyone still prophesies" - NKJV). But my opponent's position says true prophets will exist on to the end, that true prophets and false prophets will stop at the same time. This would leave no time period where false prophets exist after true prophets have ceased to exist. Therefore my opponent's position cannot be true.

 

In That Day 2nd Coming

| |

True Prophets | |

-------------------------------> | Zech 13:2 |

| |

| |

False Prophets | |

--------------------------------- | -----------------------------> | II Pet 3:9-10

| Zech 13:3-4 |

| |

True Prophets |

-----------------------------------------------------------------> |

My Opponent |

|

 

Idols, prophets, and unclean spirits passing out of the land at the end of the world doesn't make any sense, because there won't be any land left to pass out of at that time - it will all be destroyed. Everything (not just idols, prophets, and unclean spirits) will pass away at that time.

 

Conclusion: "In That Day" in Zech 13:1-4 CANNOT be referring to (the time of) the 2nd Coming of Christ, or to the End of the World, therefore true prophets must cease before that time.

 

9

I Corinthians 13:18-10

Pieces Gone Then Whole Gone?

 

My opponent's response to my "whole must be of the same nature as the parts" argument is:

If the pieces are gone, then the whole (revelation) would be gone, because the whole is made up of the pieces.

 

The above statement is true, but does not describe my position. My position is not that the whole is the same as the parts, but that the whole is of the same nature as the parts.

 

If Fred offered Ethel a piece of an apple, and Ethel replied, "no thank you, I want a whole one," would Ethel be asking for a whole apple, or a whole orange?

Ethel would be asking for a whole apple, NOT NECESSARILY FOR THE SAME APPLE THAT THE PIECE OFFERED CAME FROM, but a whole apple nonetheless. How would Fred know that Ethel wanted a whole apple and not a whole orange? Because the whole must be of the same nature as the part.

 

In the case of our discussion, the completed New Testament is not the same as prophecy, tongues, and miraculous knowledge, but it is of the same nature (they both are means by which God reveals his will); but the second coming of Christ is not of the same nature as prophecy, tongues, and miraculous knowledge.

 

Conclusion:

Since the parts have to do with the revelation of God's will, and since the whole must be of the same nature as the parts, then the whole must be the whole revelation, i.e., the completed N.T.

 

10

I Corinthians 13:8-10

Get Complete Revelation At Second Coming ?

 

My opponent agrees that the "whole must be of the same nature as the part," that the part pertains to God's revelation, and therefore that the perfect is God's complete revelation; but he says:

There are things that we don't know now that we will find out at the second coming (beginning the millinium) - like some of the things referred to in Deut 29:29, I Jn 3:2.

 

Does my opponent believe that the Apostles were guided into all the truth (Jn 16:13) or not? If yes, then by his own admission, the perfect has come.

 

The partial revelation under consideration in I Corinthians 13:

1. Is the revelation of "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" (II Pet 1:3) in this life, parts of the completed N.T. law for Christians in the N.T. age.

2. Is not revelation of things like Deut 29:29 and I Jn 3:2 that do not "pertain unto life and godliness" in this life, things that are not parts of the N.T. law for Christians under the N.T. law, things that are possibly to be revealed in heaven.

The whole MUST be of the same nature as the part!

 

If the complete revelation includes these secret things, then the partial revelation must also (since they are of the same nature). Will my opponent fill us in on some of these secret things (not part of the Bible) that have been revealed to him through miraculous gifts?

 

In what sense will the revelation be complete that my opponent will supposedly receive at the second coming? Won't my opponent continue to receive more of this type information on throughout his millennium?, and on during heaven?, or will he become omniscient at the second coming?

 

Conclusion:

Since the parts have to do with the revelation of God's N.T. Law, and since the whole must be of the same nature as the parts, then the whole must be the whole revelation of God's N.T. Law, that is, the completed, written NT.

 

11

I Corinthians 13:13

And Now

 

The words "And now" in I Corinthians 13:13 introduce the contrast between the abiding of faith, hope, and charity as opposed to the stopping of prophecy, tongues, and (miraculous) knowledge in vs.8-10.

begins with "nuni de" just like I Corinthians 15:20

1. and/de - "but, and, now, often implying an antithesis" (Vine)

2. "now" (in the English)

3. nuni ("now" [v.13] in the Greek)

4. arti ("now" [v.12] in the Greek)

5. Notice that the verse says "these three" will abide, not these six, or these twelve will abide.

"And now ABIDETH faith, hope ..." is set in contrast to prophecies, tongues, and (miraculous) knowledge STOPPING.

 

What else could v.13 mean, if it is not a contrast with vs.8-10? Is it saying "these three abide," but so do prophecies, tongues, and knowledge, even though vs.8-10 said they would STOP?

 

12

Zechariah 13:2

But There Are Still Idols?

 

My Opponent's Response To My Argument:

 

First of all, this does not answer my argument, it only presents a supposed difficulty with my argument. Will my opponent answer the argument itself in his next speech? Will my opponent deny that the context is a prophecy about the FIRST coming of Christ? (remember 13:1, 11:12-13, 12:10, 13:6, & 13:7)

 

The Answer To This Supposed Difficulty:

And so idols did PASS "out of the (Messiah's) land" in the time period of the first coming of Christ. And so did true prophets !

 

My opponent doesn't believe idols' names were cut off during the time period of Christ's death in any sense; the Bible says that they would be !

 

13

The Church/Pope Tells Us ?

Evidently my opponent doesn't believe the Bible teaches Catholic doctrine or he wouldn't need to resort to sources outside the Bible.

II Timothy 3:16-17 - the scriptures are given "That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Since my opponent must go outside the scriptures to find Catholic practices (infant baptism for example), they must not be "good works," since the Bible furnishes us "unto ALL good works."

 

I Cor 13:8-13 and Zech 13:1-4 show that prophecy has ceased, so the Pope knows no more than anybody else.

 

The Catholics make the same claim as the Mormons and Pentecostals: continuing revelation. How would I know that the Pope is right and they are wrong? The apostles performed miracles to verify that their teaching was inspired. Where are your miracles?

 

The Catholics make the same claims as the Watch Tower Witnesses. If I have to go church hierarchy for correct doctrine, how do I know that I am not supposed to go to the "Watch Tower Society?"

 

Conclusion?: Extra Biblical sources are unreliable. Only the Bible is "profitable for doctrine" and to be used for authorizing any good work (II Tim 3:16-17).

 

14

Transubstantiation ?

 

Random House: ... (in the Eucharist) the conversion of the whole substance of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, only the external appearance of bread & wine remaining

 

"this is my body ... this is my blood" (Matthew 26:26,28) are metaphors:

- all of Jesus' blood was still in his body

- Jesus called it "fruit of the vine" in v.29 after saying "this is my blood"

 

metaphor (New Standard Dictionary):

... a figure of speech in which one object is likened to another by asserting it to be that other or speaking of it as if it were that other ...

 

 

Figurative language is not unusual in the Bible.

 

15

II Timothy 3:16-17

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

Opponent's view:

that the man of God may be almost perfect, partially furnished unto most good works

 

 

Makes the man of God:

 

The Bible (written word of God) is ALL we need, our SOLE authority.

 

16

Revelation 20:12

Judged Out Of Those Things ... Written In The Books

 

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, ... And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened ... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

So we are going to be judged by the things WRITTEN in the books of the Bible:

 

Sola Scriptura

 

17

Tradition

Acts 2:42, I Cor 11:2, I Thess 2:13, II Thess 3:6, II Tim 2:2

II Thessalonians 2:15:

. stand fast, & hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

We agree God ordained traditions/practices must be followed (see also II Thessalonians 3:6). And we agree that God's word was given orally (in parts) at that time.

 

But we do NOT agree that human/Catholic traditions should be followed - Matthew 15:3,9:

... Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? ... But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Here Is The Issue: Is God still revealing his law today orally? Or is it all completed in written form, namely, the New Testament?

 

I Corinthians 13:8-13 teaches that oral revelation ceased when the written revelation (the New Testament) was completed.

 

18

Church Is Pillar Of The Truth

 

Yes, the church is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Timothy 3:15), but pillars and ground hold up something, in this case the truth. They are not the same as the truth they hold up. So the church is NOT the truth, neither the source of the truth, but the church's duty is to uphold and teach the truth.

 

The word of God is the sole source of the truth:

John 17:17 - Sanctify them through thy truth: THY WORD IS TRUTH.

 

The Bible gives us ALL the truth, II Tim 3:16-17:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

If the scriptures taught my opponent's doctrine, do you think he would resort to attacking the scriptures such as he does?

 

19

Pat Is Fallible

 

That's right, I'm fallible, but the word of God is INfallible. And the word of God is the standard I am appealing to in this debate, not my own wisdom or understanding. Bible verses are what actually prove my position.

 

James 1:25:

But whoso looketh into the PERFECT law of liberty, and continueth therein ...

 

Question:

If the fact that I am fallible means I can't understand/interpret correctly what the scriptures say, then wouldn't that mean that since my opponent is fallible, he can't understand/interpret correctly what the Pope says?

 

We CAN know the truth, John 8:32:

Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

20

The Bible Is Understandable

 

Ephesians 3:3-4 - How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge ...

 

Mt 13:23 - he that ... (is) ... the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it

 

II Cor 1:13 - For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand ... (NASV)

Why people don't understand God's word:

Matthew 13:15 - For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted ...

 

It is strange that we can't understand the Bible, even though we agree the author is the Almighty God, but we can understand the Pope who is only a man. My opponent must not think much of God's ability to communicate.

21

Papal Fallibilities

Geocentrism

 

Robert Sungenis ("Catholic Apologetics International" web site)

I didn't say geocentrism "is officially taught by the Church." I said it "WAS" officially taught by the Church. It is a fact of ecclesiastical history that Pope Paul V, Pope Urban VIII and Pope Alexander VII all condemned the notion that "the sun is the center about which the earth revolves" and "the error and heresy of the movement of the earth." Alexander VII actually signed a papal bull (Speculatores domus Israel), which was attached to the Index of Forbidden Books, stating that he condemned "all books which affirm the motion of the earth," binding the consciences of the faithful. This information is not hard to find, and anyone who wants to be an honest Catholic has to admit it.

 

Who should we believe, the Pope then or the Pope now? or God?

22

Papal Fallibilities

Salvation For Jews

Faith Only Salvation

 

Robert Sungenis ("Catholic Apologetics International" web site)

 

For example, some of us find it downright impossible to reconcile our historic faith with a Vatican that now ... tells Jews that the Old Covenant is still salvific for them, and thus they have no need to be baptized in the Catholic Church for salvation; who promotes, in a major joint-declaration with non-Catholics, a teaching the Council of Trent condemned thirteen times in thirteen different ways (i.e., "faith alone") ...

 

Even though four Vatican cardinals, elevated by the pope and placed by him at the heads of the highest commissions on ecumenism, ... in fact are the very originators of the idea that Jews are not required to be baptized for salvation since they have their own salvific covenant with God ...

 

23

Papal Fallibilities Admitted

By The Pope Himself

Pope Adrian VI

If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII (1316-1334). (Diet of Nuremburg in 1522)

 

It is certain that the Pope may err in matters of faith ... (Comm. in lib. iv., Sententiarum Quest. de Sacr. Confirm.; Romae, 1522; apud D'Aubigne, bk.10, chap.2)

Pope Adrian VI said the Pope is fallible

 was he right? - then Pope is fallible

 was he wrong? - then Pope is fallible

 

24

Church Fathers Always Right?

Lord's Supper

 

Origen ("Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew" 11:14):

... it is not the material of the bread but the word which is said over it which is of advantage to him who eats it .... And these things indeed are said of the typical and symbolical body.

 

Tertullian ("Against Marcion" 4:40:3):

... having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, he made it His own body, by saying, 'This is my body,' that is, the figure of my body.

Evidently my opponent doesn't believe the Bible teaches Catholic doctrine, or he wouldn't resort to using quotes from outside the Bible, quotes from uninspired men.

 

So called "church fathers" can be used to prove both sides of just about every issue. UNinspired writings are UNreliable. Only the Bible is "profitable for doctrine" and to be used for authorizing any good work (II Tim 3:16-17).

 

25

The Inquisition

 

Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 8, page 34:

The civil authorities ... were enjoined by the popes, under pain of excommunication to execute the legal sentences that condemned impenitent heretics to the stake. It was first authorized by Innocent IV in his Bull 'Ad exstirpanda" (In Order to Exterminate) of 15 May, 1252, ... confirmed by Alexander IV on 30 Nov, 1259, and by Clement IV on 3 Nov, 1265 (p.32) ... renewed ... by [other] popes ... Nicholas IV, Boniface VIII, and others

The Inquisition lasted for about 6 1/2 centuries.

This flies in the face of Jesus' teaching (Jn 18:36):

My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight ...

And should remind you of Hitler and the Holocaust

 

Catholic Encyclopedia, page 300:

One should not seek to justify them, but to explain them and, most importantly, to explain how they could have been associated with a divinely established Church and how, from their existence, it is not proper to conclude that the Church of Rome is not the Church of Christ.

 

26

How Can We Trust The Catholic Church ?

Mental Reservation

Revelation 21:8:

... the unbelieving ... and murderers ... and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire & brimstone ...

 

Catholic Encyclopedia, IX, 471:

So ... a false statement knowingly made to one who has not a right to the truth will not be a lie.

Catholic Encyclopedia, X, 195:

... we are ... under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully, and sometimes the easiest way of fulfilling that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie.

 

How can you trust someone for the truth when they don't think the truth is important, and admit that they will tell lies if it furthers their goals and purposes?

 

By its own free admission, Catholicism cannot be trusted !

 

27

Catholics Assembled Canon?

 

"Who Gave The Bible To The People" - Knights of Columbus:

... in 390 A.D., at the Council of Hippo, the Catholic Church gathered together the various books which claimed to be scripture, passed on the merits and claims of each and this council decided which were inspired and which were not. The Catholic Church put all the inspired books and epistles together in one volume and that is the Bible as we have it today.

 

 

Catholic Church didn't give us the NT !

 

28

Martin Luther Removed The Apocrypha ?

 

Rom 3:2 - unto the Jews "were committed the oracles of God"

Lk 11:51 - "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah" (II Chron 24:20-21) - Chronicles was at the end of Hebrew OT

 

No Apocryphal book claims inspiration.

 

29

Printing Press Not Invented Until 1440?

 

Catholic Encyclopedia, IX, 296:

In the first period (lasting perhaps till about the fourth century) there were no books EXCEPT THE BIBLE from which lessons were read and psalms were sung.

 

 

 

 

 

Those who really wanted access

to God's word had no problem.

 

30

Unity ?

 

"Handbook of Denominations in the United States, Sixth Edition" - Frank S. Mead, p.117:

When in A.D. 330 Constantine moved his capital from Rome to Byzantium & began to rule his vast empire from the new Constantinople, the most important split in the history of Christianity was under way. Up to this time the church in the West, in Rome, & the church in the East, formed one body. In the East there were four patriarchs, each traditionally equal with the fifth - the patriarch or pope of Rome; all five patriarchs accepted the Nicene Creed; all were sacramental and apostolic ... Political and ecclesiastical jealousies fanned the flame until, in 1054, the pope excommunicated the patriarch and the patriarch excommunicated the pope, the result being that there were finally 2 churches, Eastern & Western, instead of one

A few hundred years later, there was another split and the Anglican Church was started.

 

There has not been a century for fifteen hundred years when Catholics were not killing Catholics (even Popes killing Popes). Some unity!

 

Most Catholics I know don't agree on hardly anything. So "visible" Catholic unity is just that, a façade ("a false or superficial appearance, often designed to give a favorable impression," Random House). There is no real unity.

 

31

Apostolic Succession?

 

Christ intended that this (Apostolic) power should be exercised also by their successors, the bishops of the church. -My Catholic Faith, p.107

 

Nobody today meets the apostolic qualifications

 

Miracles have ceased - I Cor 13:8-10, Zech 13:1-4

Therefore, there cannot be any living apostles.

 

We still have the same 13 apostles. They haven't changed. They lead through their written word.

 

32

Contraception?

 

If the contra-ception method stops the process before conception (whether by watching temperature or other) there is nothing wrong.

 

Some forms of "contraception" actually stop the process after conception. That is wrong; it is just another form of abortion.

 

"Rich Church, Poor Church" - Malachi Martin - (former Jesuit professor at the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome; served in the Vatican under Pope John XXIII; trained in theology at Louvain; specialized in the Dead Sea Scrolls and intertestamentary studies; received his doctorate in Semitic languages, archeology, and Oriental history) p.239:

The Vatican-owned Istituto Farmacologico Serono of Rome - with a capital of $1.4 million, a 250 person payroll, and an annual profit exceeding $150,000 - produced and marketed for many years a popular contraceptive with the brand name Luteola.

 

33

How Can Catholic Church Be Authoritative,

If It's Teaching Changes?

Invalid Marriages

"The Faith of Our Fathers," Cardinal Gibbons:

If only one instance could be given in which the Church ceased to teach a doctrine of faith which had been previously held, that single instance would be the death blow of her claim to infallibility (p.74)

"The Question Box" - Conway (Roman Catholic)

Under the old canon law, such a Marriage (between a baptized Protestant and an infidel or unbaptized Protestant) was invalid, because of the impediment of disparity of worship. Under the new canon law - i.e., since May 19, 1818 - this impediment has been abolished so far as non-Catholics are concerned, and such a marriage would be valid. This important change in the Church's law arose from the increasing number of unbaptized Protestants, and the consequent increase of invalid Marriages among them.

 

This must have been a matter of faith:

 

The Bible never changes, but Catholicism does

 

34

How Can Catholic Church Be Authoritative,

If It's Teaching Changes?

Mode Of Baptism

Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism ...

 

baptizo - the meaning of the word is immersion

 

Adult Catechism, pages 56-57:

Baptism used to be given by placing the person to be baptized completely in the water: it was done in this way in the Catholic Church for 1200 years.

Our Faith and the Facts, page 399:

The church at one time practiced immersion. This was up to the thirteenth century. The Council of Ravenna, in 1311, changed the form from immersion to pouring.

 

New Interpretation of the Mass, 120, Borgmann:

Baptism took place by immersion in ancient times.

 

Catholic Facts, 27, Noll:

... if it be not identical in belief, in government etc., with the primitive Church, then it is not the Church of Christ.

 

35

How Can Catholic Church Be Authoritative,

If It's Teaching Changes?

Communion "Under Both Kinds"

 

I Cor 11:26,28 - For as often as ye eat this bread, AND DRINK THIS CUP, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. ... But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, AND DRINK OF THAT CUP.

Catholic Encyclopedia, IV, 176:

Communion under both kinds was the prevailing usage in Apostolic Times.

Catholic Dictionary, 202:

Popes Leo & Gelasius emphatically condemned persons who abstained from the chalice.

 

Lives and Times of the Roman Pontiffs, I, 111:

Communion "under both kinds ... abolished in 1416, by the Council of Constance"

 

Now my opponent tells me that the Catholic Church has changed again, and currently allows the laity to drink the fruit of the vine.

 

Remember according to Cardinal Gibbons, change is the "death blow ... to infallibility"

 

36

How Can Catholic Church Be Authoritative,

If It's Teaching Changes?

Frequency Of Communion

"The Faith of Our Fathers," Cardinal Gibbons:

If only one instance could be given in which the Church ceased to teach a doctrine of faith which had been previously held, that single instance would be the death blow of her claim to infallibility (p.74)

Acts 20:7 - And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them ...

 

Legislation on the Sacraments in the New Code of Canon Law, 87, Ayrinhac:

In the beginning Mass was celebrated only once a week, then three or four times, and finally, in the fifth or sixth century, every day.

 

A Changing Standard Is

No Standard At All !

 

37

Why So Many Interpretations ?

 

II Thessalonians 2:10:

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Matthew 13:15:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted ...

 

To illustrate, I Corinthians 14:34-35 reads:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

(see also I Timothy 2:11-12)

 

Yet probably 90% of congregations in the USA allow women to preach from their pulpits, including the Catholics. I have a tape where a Catholic, Janet E. Smith, Ph.D., is lecturing on "Contraception" to a mixed audience of men and women.

 

Is the problem interpretation, or a love of the truth ?

 

38

Church Fathers Always Right?

Peter Is The Rock?

St. Chrysostom (Homilies Of St. John Chrysostom, "Homily LIV" on Matthew 16:18, Sec. 3):

Upon this rock, that is, on the faith of his confession.

St. Augustine ("Retract.' i.21):

It was not said to him, 'Thou art a rock (petra),' but, 'Thou art Peter' and the Rock was Christ

 

Origen commented on Matthew 16:18 about 200 years after it was written ("Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew" 12:11):

But if ... upon ... Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John ... or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, 'The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,' hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, 'Upon this rock I will build my church?' ...

 

"Church Fathers" Hilary, Ambrose, Jerome, Gregory Nyssa, and Cyril taught the same.

 

39

Papal Fallibilities Admitted

By Other Catholics

Archbishop Purcell (debate with Alexander Campbell in Cincinnati on 1-13-1837, page 27):

... the bishop of Rome, though he was not believed to be infallible. Neither is he now. No enlightened Catholic holds the pope's infallibility to be an article of faith. I do not; and none of my brethren, that I know of, do. The Catholic believes the pope ... to be as liable to error, as almost any other man in the universe. Man is man, and no man is infallible, either in doctrine or morals.

"A Doctrinal Catechism," by Keenan, bearing the Imprimatur (official sanction) of Scotch Roman Catholic bishops, pre 1870:

Must not Catholics believe the pope himself to be infallible? This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of the Catholic faith; no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it is received and enforced by the teaching body, that is, the bishops of the church.

After 1870, this Q&A was dropped from Keenan's catechism.

Papal infallibility is only a recent invention!

 

40

How Can Catholic Church Be Authoritative If

The Catholic Church Contradicts The Bible

Matthew 23:9:

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. ... But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

 

I Timothy 4:1:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; ... Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats ...

 

Catholic Facts, 27, Noll:

... if it be not identical in belief, in government etc., with the primitive Church, then it is not the Church of Christ.

 

41

If Sola Scriptura, How Do We Know The

Table Of Contents ?

When we affirm "The Bible Only," we are only talking about informationally, as our authority. We do not believe God operates through the Bible only:

 

The Bible did not give us itself or its TOC; the N.T. was given by God primarily through miraculous means (and secondarily providence). God inspired its writing, and confirmed who the writers were by:

 

The early church knew the apostles & N.T. prophets, and knew who wrote each book. God providentially chose the books to be included in the N.T. through these early Christians' acceptance of the 27 books.

I Pet 1:23 . word of God, which liveth & abideth forever

 

"Sola Scriptura" didn't start until the whole New Testament Scriptures were completed and all in one place (I Corinthians 13:8-13).

 

42

The Point Of I Corinthians 13:8-10

 

I Corinthians 13:8-10:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

All agree that this passage teaches that prophecy and tongues will stop when "that which is perfect" is come. The Question is, what does the "perfect" refer to? -

The whole of God's revelation, that is, the completed New Testament.

 

My Position Explained, But Not Proven:

When the means by which God provides the complete revelation (the complete, written New Testament) comes into existence, the means by which God provides that revelation in parts (prophecy, tongues, and miraculous knowledge) would go away.

 

If I can prove "that which is perfect" refers to the completed New Testament, then I will have proven that prophecy and tongues stopped when the N.T. was completed. I will have proven my position.

 

43

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